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Explainer: What’s a “Nice Guy®?”
By Jeff Fecke | December 16, 2007
What is a “Nice Guy?”
Ah, the Nice Guy®. Pity the Nice Guy®. No, please, pity him. He desperately wants you to. And while you’re pitying him, would it kill you to give him a mercy fuck? Whether or not he ever asks for it? Because, if not, he’s going to become an angry, embittered Nice Guy®, and that…well, that’s just pathetic.
No, seriously.
All right. Seriously. A Nice Guy® is a guy who tells you, in a bitter, resentful tone, that women don’t date “nice guys,” they only date “bad boys,” and because he’s “too nice,” women only view him as a friend.
What’s wrong with that statement?
He’s not a friend to women.
But don’t women go for the bad boy?
Okay, I can see we’re not going to get anywhere this way, so let’s take a look at a typical Nice Guy® giving his natural mating cry, known to most people as a “loud, obnoxious whine.” I think he does a great job of illustrating his own pathologies, far better than I can do:
I see this question posted with some regularity in the personals section, so I thought I’d take a minute to explain things to the ladies out there that haven’t figured it out.
What happened to all the nice guys?
The answer is simple: you did.
As you can see, the Nice Guy®’s first target, in everything, is women. Usually it’s a specific woman, but she’s a stand-in for all women, as we’ll see.
See, if you think back, really hard, you might vaguely remember a Platonic guy pal who always seemed to want to spend time with you. He’d tag along with you when you went shopping, stop by your place for a movie when you were lonely but didn’t feel like going out, or even sit there and hold you while you sobbed and told him about how horribly the (other) guy that you were fucking treated you.
At the time, you probably joked with your girlfriends about how he was a little puppy dog, always following you around, trying to do things to get you to pay attention to him. They probably teased you because they thought he had a crush on you. Given that his behavior was, admittedly, a little pathetic, you vehemently denied having any romantic feelings for him, and buttressed your position by claiming that you were “just friends.” Besides, he totally wasn’t your type. I mean, he was a little too short, or too bald, or too fat, or too poor, or didn’t know how to dress himself, or basically be or do any of the things that your tall, good-looking, fit, rich, stylish boyfriend at the time pulled off with such ease.
Now, read the two paragraphs above, and you realize a few things. First of all, that Nice Guy®, who was willing to be a friend to a woman? He wasn’t nice, and he wasn’t her friend. He was choosing to feign niceness in the hopes of getting sex.
Well, can’t being nice lead to sex?
Being nice? Sure. But he was “nice.” What that entails, as you see above, is that he hung around a woman, saying he was her friend, never telling her that he wanted to have a non-platonic relationship. He just expected she’d know that he wanted her because…well, why else would a guy hang out with a woman? And note that he claims she did, while giving no evidence she did.
Eventually, your Platonic buddy drifted away, as your relationship with the boyfriend got more serious and spending time with this other guy was, admittedly, a little weird, if you werent dating him. More time passed, and the boyfriend eventually cheated on you, or became boring, or you realized that the things that attracted you to him weren’t the kinds of things that make for a good, long-term relationship. So, now, you’re single again, and after having tried the bar scene for several months having only encountered players and douche bags, you wonder, “What happened to all the nice guys?”
Well, once again, you did.
You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. You laughed at his consideration and resented his devotion. You valued the aloof boyfriend more than the attentive “just-a-” friend. Eventually, he took the hint and moved on with his life. [Emphasis mine]
I’m breaking that paragraph in two, because that statement deserves highlighting again. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy. How clearer could the Nice Guy®’s antipathy toward this woman, and all women, be? Emotional intimacy, this says, is what women want. Physical intimacy is what men want. I gave, you should have given. Quid pro quo and all that.
Except…men and women both need both physical and emotional intimacy, as anyone with any understanding of humans knows. And the two do not always go hand-in-hand, as anyone with any understanding of humans knows. The Nice Guy® is hampered because all he knows about women comes from his reading of evolutionary psychology and his internalization of patriarchal ideals. And despite his long, enduring friendship with a woman that was so wonderful and giving, he never learned enough about her to find out more.
He probably came to realize, one day, that women aren’t really attracted to guys who hold doors open; or make dinners just because; or buy you a Christmas gift that you mentioned, in passing, that you really wanted five months ago; or listen when you’re upset; or hold you when you cry. He came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he’d have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.
Oh, for the love of the Ceiling Cat.
That is pretty pathetic.
It’s not just that. Look, I’m not proud of it, but I’m a recovering Nice Guy®. And I can tell you that there was a time when I sort of bought the nice guy/bad boy crap. But you know what? In real life, most of the “bad boys” are actually, well, nice guys. I’m willing to bet this woman’s boyfriend did buy her presents and hold her when she cried and listen when she was upset. That’s not to say he was perfect, because nobody is, and he may have even had some downright lousy traits. But that doesn’t make him evil; it makes him human.
This is the ultimate failing of the Nice Guy®; he takes away the wrong message from not getting a date with His One True Love. The message he internalizes is that he’s too nice. But the reality is that he never states his actual intentions.
There’s no crime in being attracted to someone who started as a true platonic friend. But if you’re actually a friend, you deal with that like an adult dealing with a friend. You tell them what you’re feeling. Maybe you find out that they share your feelings. Maybe you find out they don’t. Maybe you feel after that you can stay friends, and maybe you can’t.
But if you never make your intentions clear, you can’t complain that your One True Love didn’t read your mind. If she views you as just a friend, she may think you view her that way too. After all, you say you’re her friend, right?
Fact is, now, he’s probably getting laid, and in a way, your ultimate rejection of him is to thank for that. And I’m sorry that it took the complete absence of “nice guys” in your life for you to realize that you missed them and wanted them. Most women will only have a handful of nice guys stumble into their lives, if that.
Dude, you’re selling men short. Many, I daresay most, guys are nice. They’re not perfect, and they’ve got their own issues, but they’re not mean.
But Nice Guy® here? He’s not part of that cohort. He’s a jerk, a self-centered asshole. And if you doubt that, read his closing:
So, if you’re looking for a nice guy, here’s what you do:
1.) Build a time machine.
2.) Go back a few years and pull your head out of your ass.
3.) Take a look at what’s right in front of you and grab ahold of it.I suppose the other possibility is that you STILL don’t really want a nice guy, but you feel the social pressure to at least appear to have matured beyond your infantile taste in men. In which case, you might be in luck, because the nice guy you claim to want has, in reality, shed his nice guy mantle and is out there looking to unleash his cynicism and resentment onto someone just like you.
If you were five years younger.
So, please: either stop misrepresenting what you want, or own up to the fact that you’ve fucked yourself over. You’re getting older, after all. It’s time to excise the bullshit and deal with reality. You didn’t want a nice guy then, and he certainly doesn’t fucking want you, now.
In short: he hates you now. He wouldn’t fuck you with a ten-foot pole, and indeed, he’s spending his time banging hot chicks, hotter than you.
How “nice.”
You see, a Nice Guy® isn’t nice, and never was. He wasn’t your friend. He didn’t even like you. He was just a guy trying to get in your pants.
Had he been your friend, really been your friend, he wouldn’t hate you now. He would value the emotional connection you once shared, while occasionally lamenting that he didn’t tell you how he felt when he had the chance. You see, the emotional connection you once shared would have value to him. But it didn’t. He didn’t care about you, and he wasn’t a nice guy.
And the guy (or girl) you’re dating now, the one who makes dinner at least half the time and likes to talk to you deep into the night? They’re nice. So’s your friend who comes over on Tuesdays to watch bad movies. They’re not looking to get physical, and if they ever changed their mind, they’d let you know.
But Nice Guy®s don’t think like that. Your nice s.o., your nice friends, they like you, and value you for you. The Nice Guy® views you as an object, interchangeable with any other woman out there. And that’s all they ever did.
Topics: Feminism, Nice Guys® | 53 Comments »
December 16th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“Nice guys” read books like this, and look for the best way to “seduce any woman.”
To be fair, a lot of women don’t want nice guys. Guys unable to make a move, willing to be walked on. Most women want a partner, not a lap dog.
December 16th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Jeff,
You’re such a sycophant for the feminist movement Jeff..
Duncan.
December 16th, 2007 at 9:03 pm
Thanks, Duncan. You’re a misogynist douchebag!
Ad hominem attacks. They’re not just for breakfast anymore!
December 16th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
To be fair, a lot of women don’t want nice guys. Guys unable to make a move, willing to be walked on. Most women want a partner, not a lap dog.
This is the point I make to Nice Guy®s. Usually, a Nice Guy® wanted a woman to simply know that he desired her. That…simply doesn’t happen. Women aren’t mindreaders.
No guarantee, of course, that if you ask a woman out that she’ll say yes, but she’s a lot more likely to say yes if you ask her, no?
December 17th, 2007 at 9:14 am
> Guys unable to make a move, willing to be walked on. Most women want a partner, not a lap dog.
So it’s still up to the guys to “make a move”… plus ca change after all this “liberation”. Well HE had better be a mind-reader, because of the crushing rejection he might get. Some younger women recognize the risk-taking courage necessary to ask them out, and are complimented by the effort (especially as they age and such compliments aren’t as frequent). But many wouldn’t give a guy any credit, use society’s license to happily rip their balls off for trying, and that would be the end of the friendship which the Nice Guy – and all “his fault” for being interested in her physically.
While being “empowered” to flaunt their own sexuality, there’s still an almost puritan attitude among American women, including feminists, that male sexuality is something threatening and shameful that should be apologized for – the “how dare you look at me like that you pervert – THIS is not for you!” routine. Shaming men this way is a staple of our culture and the media. Unfortunately, it can turn a Nice Guy into a bitter misogynist like the one you quoted.
As to what can be done – perhaps school programs that respect males instead of vilifying them? Certainly more men should stand up for themselves and their peers when disrespected by women (I’m often shocked by what I overhear women say to men in public places – if a man said the same he’d be knocked to the ground). But most importantly – more parent involvement – they’re the ones who are the “first contact” with the strange alien species called the other gender…
December 17th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Oh, Closette, so many strawmen, so little time.
No, it’s not up to guys to make the first move. My daughter’s five, and I’ve already taught her that it’s okay for a girl to ask a guy for a date (at an age-appropriate level, I assure you). And I believe that — indeed, I encourage that.
As for a woman who’d “rip their balls off” for asking her out on a date — her loss. She’s no more a catch than a Nice Guy®. And I defy you to find a real feminist, as opposed to a strawfeminist, who would argue differently.
No, Closette, what I and other feminists advocate is dismantling the confusing and obnoxious dating dance dictated by the patriarchy. If you’re interested in someone, ask them. If they reciprocate, great. If not, oh well. If someone asks you for a date, decide if you’re interested. If you are, say yes. If not, be polite, but firm. If they persist beyond that, then it’s fine to be firmer — which, may I note, is often where guys get their balls ripped off, metaphorically. But it’s usually because they didn’t take the first five nos as a clue.
Finally, disrespect for men is not a feminist value. Men and women are equals. The degrading of men — arguing that they’re incapable, uncontrolled boobs, unable to clean or control their own sexuality — that’s not feminism at all. That’s as much a part of the warp and weave of the patriarchy as anything. And that’s what we’re trying to dismantle.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
> what I and other feminists advocate is dismantling the confusing and obnoxious dating dance dictated by the patriarchy.
Sounds great – show us some campaigns by feminist organizations which aim to do this, without vilifying men of course!
And since patriarchy seems to be to blame for so much (though without much proof, some would say) perhaps the Nice Guy can be counted among its victims, as opposed to being called a “whiner” – one of the common epithets used to “silence” men who dare to speak about their feelings. (I have no opinion either way).
> The degrading of men — arguing that they’re incapable, uncontrolled boobs, unable to clean or control their own sexuality — that’s not feminism at all.
Sounds great – please show us some examples of feminists rallying with the men’s movement to protest against degrading portrayals of men in the media.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:46 am
I’m intrigued. There are “feminist organizations”? And they have so much time on their hands that they can not only tackle issues like date rapes, domestic violence, sexist language, sexism in the media, instituational sexism, the glass ceiling etcetcetc, but also extend their protecting hand towards the men’s movement? And the men’s movement is so gallant that they accept said hand? How nice. Together we shall march into the sunset.
November 18th, 2008 at 10:43 am
[...] the Nice Guy™. Please. His world is all topsy-turvy. All he wants is to know exactly what all women want, so that [...]
November 18th, 2008 at 10:46 am
[...] the Nice Guy™. Please. His world is all topsy-turvy. All he wants is to know exactly what all women want, so that [...]
November 18th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
There is a fundamental breakdown in communication. women are not mind readers and neither are men.This is not a us against them argument which is the thing that I don’t like about most authors that conjure advice columns such as these. These forums often do not offer viable solutions but place mounds and mounds of blame upon one group or another.The two-faced rules must end for both genders. The constant crap that exists in society must end and of course communication must improve between the sexes. You can either settle for a fantasy or create a positive reality.It’s up to you! Not any advice columnist.Women will continue to meet men. No man or woman can be a rug! you can’t let anyone walk all over you! Reach within yourself and have self-respect. everybody plays the fool sometimes but not everyone remains a fool. It’s good to learn lessons and it’s good to grow. Parents should inform both their sons and daughters to have more self-respect and respect for others as your equal.For all the women that take advantage of men Shame on you and for all the men that take advantage of women SHAME on you!
Shame on you both for not valuing each other as human beings.There is a such thing as being TOO NICE and we should all learn the difference.TOO NICE = DOORMAT and in no way should you be a doormat. That is the bottom line!
November 18th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I really hope this is not the template that girls judge the “Nice Guy” on.
I’m in a situation like that, minus the desire for sex.
There are those guys who are mean, womanizing, arrogant assholes. Then there are the “Nice Guys” who are trying to trick the girls into liking them through being “Nice.” Then there are men.
In reality, the nice guy DOES get stepped on. A LOT. I’m one of them.
I’m not expecting physical reciprocation, just to be noticed.
I don’t know where you got that piece you used, but it’s offensive and to apply it to more than a small percentage of nice guys, that’s just wrong.
You can always tell the real nice guys when they stick around and don’t treat you differently in spite of your relationship status.
November 18th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
No no no no no. It’s all about looks.
November 19th, 2008 at 12:29 am
You just said what I’ve been thinking for ages but never had the time to put so completely into words. Thank you! I think I’m in love with this article.
November 19th, 2008 at 11:48 am
[...] hilarious (via Amanda). Please see Jeff Fecke’s explaination of “Nice Guys” too. It’s pure [...]
November 19th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
You’re a good writer, you’ll have that!
I’m 25 years old, and i’m hanging on this text to the bottom, after I read it I had to laugh abit, and see whom had written it… to but it this way – It’s interesting to see how deep into this subject an apparently ordinary 30 year old guy, with a 5 year old daughter can be. I wonder what your aim with this article is.. really. What you do here, is to take one sort of nice guy, and amplifies the, more like negative traits of this personality…
you’re right in many ways, but you’re a generalizer.., because you makes this sort of guy the stereotype for a nice guy. You’ve even made your own brand..”The Nice Guy® views you as an object, interchangeable with any other woman out there. And that’s all they ever did.” I think im a nice guy, well im not that nice, but this is nothing more common in nice guys than other groups is it?
November 19th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
This article seems a little one-sided to be honest.
How about the girl leading the guy on, and evading any attempt to move it on, because she knows that she’ll say no and risk losing the attention? I’ve heard of that happen countless times to ‘Nice Guys’, who are too ‘Nice’ and trusting to realise that not everyone plays fair.
I also think you’re playing down the difficulty of bringing up this kind of thing in a friendship. If you truly value someone as a friend, but also would like to move it on, don’t you think that it could be a little hard to bring up, bearing in mind that you stand to lose the friendship if it goes wrong?
I’d also say that, given that a lot of these cases are as much to do with dishonesty on the other side of the friendship, it’s a little ridiculous to claim that the ‘really actually nice’ guy should lament the loss of it.
I think the main point of the original cl post was that if you crap on a nice guy, they may eventually stop being nice and perhaps even become a little cynical. I’d say that’s pretty reasonable.
November 19th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
[...] Explainer: What’s a “Nice Guy®?” | Blog of the Moderate Left Ah, the Nice Guy®. Pity the Nice Guy®. No, please, pity him. He desperately wants you to. And while you’re pitying him, would it kill you to give him a mercy fuck? Whether or not he ever asks for it? Because, if not, he’s going to become an angry, embittered Nice Guy®, and that…well, that’s just pathetic. (tags: sex relationships masculinity gender culture) [...]
November 20th, 2008 at 3:53 am
[...] post and you should read it all if you can. It really speaks right from my heart: Pity the Nice Guy™. Please. His world is all topsy-turvy. All he wants is to know exactly what all women want, so that [...]
November 23rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
eb:
The chances are, if you self-identify as “a nice guy”, then on some level you are a “Nice Guy®” – maybe without even realising it.
This remark from eb is pretty much a giveaway: How about the girl leading the guy on, and evading any attempt to move it on, because she knows that she’ll say no and risk losing the attention?
That is classic “Nice Guy®” language!
Garrett, Jt:
I don’t know where you got that piece you used, but it’s offensive and to apply it to more than a small percentage of nice guys, that’s just wrong.
I’ve seen literally hundreds of similar screeds over the past 4 years on dating sites’ discussion forums and on blogs. I’ve seen the “Nice Guy®” dynamic in real life with sickening frequency, and yup – in my younger days, I was a Nice Guy too. At the time, I wouldn’t have called myself a “Nice Guy®”, I’d have said I was a “genuinely nice guy”, but I was lying to myself.
The correct distinction is between “Nice Guy®” and “decent human being”. The former term was coined some time ago to describe the all too frequent phenomenon as discussed by the OP.
November 27th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Yes, yes, yes!
I wasted so many years being the ‘Nice Guy®’ and this piece hits the nail right on the head. So many years have I wasted with this dating ‘strategy’, so many missed opportunities for meaningful relationships, so many relationships ending badly because I simply didn’t have enough confidence to be my own person, instead of a ‘Nice Guy®’.
eb:
“How about the girl leading the guy on, and evading any attempt to move it on, because she knows that she’ll say no and risk losing the attention? I’ve heard of that happen countless times to ‘Nice Guys’, who are too ‘Nice’ and trusting to realise that not everyone plays fair.”
Yes this happens, but only if you let it happen. The trouble is, ‘Nice Guys’ are quite willing to be lead on in exchange for the chance that maybe, some day, some how their perseverence will pay off with a relationship (or at least some sex). One of the key points of Jeff’s article is for ‘Nice Guys®’ to assert themselves, their wants and needs to those they’re attracted to. No not everyone plays fair… so why bother playing along?
March 8th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Ah, Jeff…. Nothing more frustrating than a “feminist” man, telling a woman making a valid point that He and other “feminists” are “trying to dismantle the patriarchy”.
To me, a feminist man is like a white member of The Black Panthers- Sympathise, empathise, but please don’t make out you’re one of us.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:54 am
What with ‘nice guys’ like Snowdrop Explodes, who posts up his own sordid rape fantasies and confessions of almost comitting violence against a woman, and who doesn’t see anything wrong with extreme pornography despite the harm it causes women…
http://andyouthoughtiwassweet.blogspot.com/2008/03/real-life-confession.html
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/agcse.htm
… who needs enemies!
March 26th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
*applauds* Thank you.
April 14th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
@ sickofmen:
To take those two links in reverse order.
My statement opposed to banning simple possession addressed the question from the perspective that the specific proposed legislation would do nothing to protect women from any harm done by extreme pornography. The link is a non sequitur from your argument.
As it happens, I believe based on a careful assessment of the available evidence that extreme pornography does not do harm to women, and the claim that it does is propaganda. It is worth noting that in the first link, I actually credit extreme porn with saving a woman’s life.
The first link tells the story of a time when I was suffering from severe mental health issues, and as anyone reading the piece can see, I posted it not as a celebration but as a warning. The explicitly-stated purpose of posting that was to say to anyone else suffering in the same way – “Get help, and don’t let it reach the point that I did!” It is curious to me that you use the term “confessions”, plural – there is in my life only one such incident, and consequently only one confession, singular.
Also, you don’t link to any of my sexual fantasies, and appear to believe that what I fantasise about is also what I secretly want to do in real life. Around 25% of British women have sexual fantasies of being raped (according to several different surveys over the past 15 years or so on sexual attitudes), but I’m willing to bet that around 0% of those women actually want to be raped in real life. Fantasy ≠ reality, and fantasy ≠ desire.
I am utterly unashamed of my sexuality as a largely heterosexual sadist, and I emphasise that sadism need have nothing to do with causing harm, only with causing pain (and if you think pain always means harm, then try some strenuous exercise).
April 25th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
This was a great read–I mean an eye opener for both men and women.
Communication–use it or lose who or whatever you sought.
June 12th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Your “Nice Guys” are the Seduction (PUA) community’s AFC (average frustrated chump)also known as an Orbiter. These guys desperately want these girls that they are friends with to be romantic partners. The AFC remembers her birthdays and comforts her when she is sad, but never does the AFC have a romantic relationship with them. Why? The girl assumes they are just friends; He pines for her. He is really one of her “girlfriends” not ever a romantic prospect. Meanwhile she gets seduced by guys like me. Why does she go for a guy that actively dates 5-6 women at a time? Because I will approach make my intentions clear through communications (verbal and nonverbal). She feels attraction and with some time and comfort often ends up in a pleasurable situation. Then all of her orbiters see me as a jerk. Which only adds to my value in dating, because all the attributes of a “jerk” are ones women like. Confidence, a sense of who he is, willing to stand for something and has boundaries, intense and passionate are the traits of a “jerk.” So I suggest some of the “nice guys” go look into the seduction arts (Mystery Method, RSD, Style ect)and learn to be confident and attractive to what women want, not what they say they want. Remember most of the pain in life is self inflicted because we see the world as we WANT it to be or think it SHOULD be not how it REALLY is.
August 6th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Valid points in the post and the comments. It’s all about perspective and perception sometimes. Sometimes it’s all about what isn’t said. Sometimes the Nice Guy ® is seen as a potential friend and not a mate for other reasons. I know in my case of couple of these Nice Guys ® were great friends but not very good to the women they dated. One would tell me what a dog he was to other women, told me that his issue was fidelity and even showed me what a jerk he could be to a woman once or twice, and for the life of him could not figure out why I only wanted to be his friend. But I am well aware that he is only one example. Only one man. Not a stand in for all men or all Nice Guys ®. And that’s why I try not to generalize. So for all those Nice Guys ® out there, please shake it off and try again.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
[...] Comments Jeff Fecke on Quote du JourFranklin on Quote du Jourtom on Quote du JourNina on Explainer: What’s a “Nice Guy®?”Franklin on Quote du [...]
August 19th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Jeff,
Until I read this article, I was totally mired in TheNiceGuy&tm; circle of hell. I didn’t even realize what I was doing and why, and nearly missed out on the love of my life because of it.
I sincerely thought that my feelings and affections towards her were transparent enough that she would “just know” how I felt. Surprise surprise, she can’t read minds any better than I can..
After better than 6 months of literally no contact (at my behest.. I was bitter.. to her credit, she was always willing to give me another chance the entire time!), we reconnected and found out we truly loved each other.
The difference? This time I wasn’t afraid to say so.. The fear of losing her a second time completely and totally overpowered my fear of rejection, which is no mean feat.
(as an aside: I consider this overpowering fear of rejection to be a critical point in the formation of NiceGuy&tm;-ism. Formally recognizing that and working towards eliminating or at least minimizing that fear is critical to stepping out of this orbit..)
I credit this blog post for opening my eyes.
Thank you, Jeff. I’ve sent this link on to a lot of other men I know who are in this situation in hopes they will be similarly enlightened.
August 31st, 2009 at 1:42 pm
lll
September 1st, 2009 at 1:15 am
Potato–
I missed your comment the first time around, I’m glad I stumbled across it. I’m glad things worked out for you and your s.o. And you’re spot on: there’s nothing wrong with having romantic feelings for a friend. But expecting her (or him) to simply know will never work. Actually telling her (or him)? Well, that may not always work either. But sometimes it does. And either way, both of you are better off with honesty.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Great article. Couldn’t agree more with the message. I have been in situations as mentioned above before and am glad someone has finally put things in black and white.
September 13th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
OMG! I just dated this guy.
and he freaked out when I called him out on it.
even though he spent most of his time bitching and wining about the last girl that screwed him over.
October 2nd, 2009 at 7:32 am
those “nice guys” would be bad guys because what they’re doing is kind of dark and deceptive.
December 1st, 2009 at 5:34 pm
I think you nailed this one. Women want men to be who they are. And most of them are pretty successful at it. We (women) are happy to take the good with the bad, and we know when you love us you do the same. Nice guys aren’t sincere, and somehow, you just know that they aren’t real with themselves either. If things aren’t going well, they like to martyr themselves, and of course, the woman gets to play the role of victimizer. No one, absolutely no one who has any maturity is going to fall for that for long. It may work for a while, but in the end, Nice Guy ends up alone, and blames everyone else but himself and his own ability to connect with his REAL feelings. Good bad or indifferent, we all want REAL.
December 25th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Although a fun read, this article, and the countless others of its ilk found on modern, enlightened, pro-feminist blogs and sites across the ‘net, is mostly BS.
It’s nothing but a straw man, and a crude one at that. You construct a very narrow definition of the “Nice Guy(tm)” – basically a borderline sociopathic, hateful, manipulative creep – and then you tell EVERY guy who can’t get a date or has had bad luck with women, that it’s probably because he’s THAT guy!
Not only is this a gross generalization, I’m always amazed at the amount of spite and venom that accompanies it. On this and other similar articles, the message is clear. How do you think a confused, lonely guy will feel when he reads something like “Can’t get a date? Well, it’s gotta be entirely YOUR fault, because you’re scum that doesn’t deserve love and will never get it, so you might as well die and spare the world of your presence!” – paraphrased, of course, but that’s the basic gist.
And yet, the only apparent criterion of separating the truly good guys from the Nice Guys is whether they’ve got a woman on their arm or not. The reasoning is something like “if you’re a truly good guy you should have no trouble getting dates, so if you don’t, it must mean there’s something wrong with you, and you’re most likely the person we described above!” There is no room left for guys who are just shy, or who were taught by society to respect women, or just don’t have any experience in the dating game. Nope, they’re all creepy Nice Guys(tm)!
Some guys just have bad luck, or never learned how to connect with other people, or might have a slew of other problems, yet when they come to the internet for help, they find pages like this that do nothing but insult and belittle them, telling them it must all be their fault and that they’re horrible human beings. I wonder, frankly, if this type of article actually says more about the author.
December 29th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
This is an very sad article and oversimplified essay. It’s like people would rather think in terms of black and white then accept the truth that life and people are much more complicated. This article basically says that if male even complains or express some frustrations on being rejected by women then he is probably the Nice Guy. It is human nature to fill frustration and anger when ever someone has been rejected. No one likes to be rejected especially when it is continuously. A lot of the time males that are nice guy are more likely to taken be advantage and treated with less value. So that obviously is going to cause some bitterness and resentment. However, a lot nice guys try to overcome those feelings, but when people are constantly looking at them with suspension and accusing their behavior as being insincere it makes them not want to try at all. I believe that people need some serious growing up and realize that men aren’t perfect and neither are women. They both make the same mistakes and demonizing one gender for not being want you want them to be is just hypocrisy.
January 2nd, 2010 at 7:57 am
Finally someone who sees “nice guys” for what they are.
I discovered that true nice guys are those who are nice to all girls.
I have only met a few guys (who all happened to be taken and madly in love with their women who returned the feelings) that were truly nice guys. They were nice and friendly with everyone, and their girls were usually the same way too.
But most “nice guys” are usually jerks to girls they do not like. That is why I do not pity them when they give the “nice guy” cry.
I liken this behavior by them to how girls tend to rationalize why a guy would reject them.
Guys and girls are so busy victimizing themselves they never stop to wonder the reasons they may be getting rejected. Its possible one is aiming too high, aiming for the wrong people for the wrong reasons, maybe its the way you look or act, etc.
It always angered me how guys tend to wail on women for getting with a bad guy, but would always victimize themselves when they get a bad girl and get away with bad mouthing all women…
you know…maybe its time people bring back personal responsibility.
January 3rd, 2010 at 5:39 pm
I think there is a lot of confusion on the meaning of nice guy. To me word nice means someone that genuinely kind to others. I believe that someone who is nice is not obligated to be nice everyone. If person that is consider nice and kind doesn’t like someone, because of their obnoxious behavior then their not obligated to be nice to that person.
Furthermore, when nice guy(or girl) gets rejected it’s not always their fault. I believe it’s insincere to say ” if you ever get rejected then there something wrong with you”. People get rejected sometimes it because of something that they said and other times that person is simply not interested. It’s not always that person fault that they get rejected, because not everyone gets want they deserve. To say that every time a person fails or is rejected then it’s their fault is oversimplified. People don’t get want they deserve they get want they get. The only thing that people can ask for the nice guys or anyone for that matter is to be honest and to do want they can, because that all you really can do.
January 3rd, 2010 at 6:25 pm
I think there is a lot of confusion on the meaning of nice guy. To me word nice means someone that genuinely kind to others. I believe that someone who is nice is not obligated to be nice everyone. If person that is consider nice and kind doesn’t like someone, because of their obnoxious behavior then their not obligated to be nice to that person.
Furthermore, when nice guy(or girl) gets rejected it’s not always their fault. I believe it’s insincere to say ” if you ever get rejected then there something wrong with you”. People get rejected sometimes it because of something that they said and other times that person is simply not interested. It’s not always that person fault that they get rejected, because not everyone gets want they deserve. To say that every time a person fails or is rejected then it’s their fault is oversimplified. People don’t get want they deserve they get want they get. The only thing that people can ask of the nice guys or anyone that matter is to be honest and to do want they can, because that all you really can do. People should be personal responsibilty and are not responsible for the actioins of others including rejection.
January 3rd, 2010 at 6:26 pm
I think there is a lot of confusion on the meaning of nice guy. To me word nice means someone that genuinely kind to others. I believe that someone who is nice is not obligated to be nice everyone. If person that is consider nice and kind doesn’t like someone, because of their obnoxious behavior then their not obligated to be nice to that person.
Furthermore, when nice guy(or girl) gets rejected it’s not always their fault. I believe it’s insincere to say ” if you ever get rejected then there something wrong with you”. People get rejected sometimes it because of something that they said and other times that person is simply not interested. It’s not always that person fault that they get rejected, because not everyone gets want they deserve. To say that every time a person fails or is rejected then it’s their fault is oversimplified. People don’t get want they deserve they get want they get. The only thing that people can ask of the nice guys or anyone that matter is to be honest and to do want they can, because that all you really can do. People should be personal responsibilty and are not responsible for the actioins of others including their rejection.
January 3rd, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Recovering –
That’s why we differentiate between Nice Guys and Nice GuysTM. The former is, well, nice. The latter is feigning niceness to get in your pants.
But of course, I said all that above. Including the fact that it isn’t your fault if you get rejected — unless you never ask to be accepted in the first place.
January 4th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
“That’s why we differentiate between Nice Guys and Nice GuysTM.”
The problem is that people believe that most Nice Guys are the Nice GuysTM. That is why people constantly question a nice guy sincerity. I believe by demonizing the Nice GuyTM so much the actual Nice Guy gets punished for it. The Nice GuyTM is seem as more of an bogeyman than an human being which as an result turns into a witch hunt.
” Including the fact that it isn’t your fault if you get rejected — unless you never ask to be accepted in the first place.”
I think you would have to explain that statement to me because when someone wants to be with someone romantically they obviously want to be accepted as that person’s boyfriend or girlfriend.
January 5th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
I think you would have to explain that statement to me because when someone wants to be with someone romantically they obviously want to be accepted as that person’s boyfriend or girlfriend.
Sigh.
If I am friends with a woman, and I desire something more than just friendship, that will certainly be obvious — to me.
But will it be obvious to her? Not necessarily. She’s not a mind-reader. She doesn’t know that you tag along with her and her boyfriend because you’re hoping the boyfriend will act like an idiot and give you your chance.
Too many Nice GuysTM simply don’t make their intentions clear. They hang around, and complain, and hope that the objects of their affection will one day magically realize that They Were The Right Guy All Along. And they get righteously angry when that doesn’t happen.
Well, sorry. If you don’t tell someone you want to date them, you don’t get to turn around and be angry at them for not simply knowing.
Incidentally, the fact that you don’t seem to be able to grasp this tends to make me think you have a few Nice GuyTM tendencies. As a recovering Nice GuyTM, I implore you to try to look into that, because it’s a recipe for disaster, man.
January 5th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
“Incidentally, the fact that you don’t seem to be able to grasp this tends to make me think you have a few Nice GuyTM tendencies. As a recovering Nice GuyTM, I implore you to try to look into that, because it’s a recipe for disaster, man.”
Okay, there seems to be a lot of conflicting conception about the Nice Guy. If a man like a woman romantically and wants to be more then just friends and doesn’t tell this to her then he has a fear of rejection. He also may be afraid to tell her about his feelings because he fears that she may feel betrayed and not want to be friends anymore if he tells the truth. This fear is valid since I read many comments that says how women feel a sense of betrayal when a male friend confesses his true feelings. So to me the nice guys is put into a position that he dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn’t, which can lead into some anger and some resentment. It really doesn’t who makes a move just as long as someone as a move is made. The nice guy usually does make a move but are often rejected which make their fear a reality.
January 5th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
“Incidentally, the fact that you don’t seem to be able to grasp this tends to make me think you have a few Nice GuyTM tendencies”
This statement proves my that early statement was valid. That anyone that has different opinion about the Nice Guy that doesn’t see him as a complete creep or monster is probably a Nice Guy TM.
January 5th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
“So to me the nice guys is put into a position that he dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn’t, which can lead into some anger and some resentment.”
No. He isn’t. He’s damned if he doesn’t. If he’s rejected…he’s rejected. It happens. To everyone. Your female friend isn’t obligated to date you, or jump up and down happily when she knows you want to be more than friends. She isn’t even obligated to be happy about it.
Why? Because you don’t have the right to anyone else’s love. Love is given, freely. It isn’t owed.
And so if you value a friendship too much to risk it over a chance at something more? Your choice, but then don’t be angry that your female friend isn’t a mind-reader. If you risk and lose the friendship on a chance at something more? Again, your choice, and while you have the right to be disappointed and even saddened by that, you don’t have the right to be angry that your feelings were not reciprocated. You aren’t owed love.
You say above, “It really doesn’t who makes a move just as long as someone as a move is made.” That’s true, but it’s only true if both parties feel the same. If they don’t, then the onus is on the party that is not happy with the status quo. You seem to be of the opinion that women should assume any male friend is possibly interested and that they should indulge that possibility. That’s profoundly disrespectful. It’s NiceGuyTMness at its nicestTM.
I don’t see Nice GuysTM as irredeemable creeps — I was one, once upon a time. But the behavior is creepy. And it is wrong. And it is indefensible.
January 5th, 2010 at 6:05 pm
:No. He isn’t. He’s damned if he doesn’t. If he’s rejected…he’s rejected. It happens. To everyone. Your female friend isn’t obligated to date you, or jump up and down happily when she knows you want to be more than friends. She isn’t even obligated to be happy about it.”
I never said that she is obligated to go out with him or to love him for it, but she shouldn’t condemn him just for being honest about his feelings either. If it something they can move past that is fine if not then it’s best for them to move on.
“You aren’t owed love.”
I never said that anyone is owed love, but in the dating world can get frustrating for a lot people. I don’t believe that love is owed, but it is needed for most people.
” You seem to be of the opinion that women should assume any male friend is possibly interested and that they should indulge that possibility. That’s profoundly disrespectful. It’s NiceGuyTMness at its nicestTM.”
Okay, I never said that at all. If a woman is interested in a male friend then there is no harm of her making the first move. There is no disrespect on allowing the woman to make to first woman if she is interested. Is that not want female empowerment to not be restrained by gender roles.
January 5th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
.”If you risk and lose the friendship on a chance at something more? Again, your choice, and while you have the right to be disappointed and even saddened by that, you don’t have the right to be angry that your feelings were not reciprocated. You aren’t owed love.”
I believe that you make a lot of people angry by telling them how to feel, or how to think. When relationship ends there is probably going to be some anger and some resentment even in terms of friendship. It’s really about how to overcome those feelings rather then pretend they don’t exist. To say that if a guy admits that he has been angry over unrequited love is just a pathetic loser then just becomes a bitter cycle.
“I don’t see Nice GuysTM as irredeemable creeps — I was one, once upon a time. But the behavior is creepy. And it is wrong. And it is indefensible.”
It seems since you were the Nice GuyTM yourself that you will have a little more sympathy towards others with the same problem. Instead you call them creeps and losers. Sometimes when people see others engage in wrongful behavior they did themselves it result in being overly judgmental. It sometimes leads to them projecting there on guilt and self-loathing about their behavior on to other people. I believe that you tell someone their behavior is wrong without being argumentative about it.
January 15th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Nice guys fall into a wide spectrum of behavior, but I think you’ve captured the exemplar rather well. I say this as a currently recovering nice guy. I really am a nice person, and I really do like women. I’m usually pretty honest about when I want more than talk and movies from a woman. However, I have been an insecure, needy little boy for almost 40 years. I just lost the woman of my dreams because she couldn’t stand to be around me anymore, but she could never quite identify why. Well, I figured it out when I read something very similar to this post on another site. (http://relationships.blog-city.com/nice_guys__a_womans_point_of_view.htm) It was like looking in a mirror and seeing my own face for the very first time. I was stunned, devastated. But now I’m not a Nice Guy anymore. I’m well on the road to recovery. I wish it hadn’t been such a painful wakeup, but it was worth it. Stop by my blog to witness the ongoing transformation. I just started it, but I posted lots of old stuff just to give it a good background.
May 17th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
Jeff,
It’s ironic how fast you are to call out strawmen and ad hominem attacks when it seems that that’s all your article is.
May 18th, 2010 at 11:45 am
I just discovered this and reposted in a private forum, where it’s being greatly appreciated. Thanks!
I’m sincerely amazed at how much blowback there is to such a thoughtful, well-written and well-reasoned piece. Ah, well… they’re not my bitter grapes to chew.