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Nice Guys™ Finish Last
By Jeff Fecke | November 18, 2008
Pity the Nice Guy™. Please. His world is all topsy-turvy. All he wants is to know exactly what all women want, so that he can have sex with them. But it turns out that different women want different things. Some women believe firmly in traditional gender roles, while others are believers in egalitarianism. Some women are all about hooking up, others want a commitment. And this means that a Nice Guy™ is completely unable to get it right on every single date. Quelle horreur!
The latest bit of Nice Guy™ wankery comes courtesy of Kay S. Hymowitz, writing in City Journal, who explains that the rules just don’t matter anymore, and that’s just terrible for the menz. She had written a previous article arguing that today’s men are too childish (which is another stupid stereotype for another day), and men wrote in to say nuh-uh, it’s all girls’ fault:
It would be easy enough to hold up some of the callow ranting that the piece inspired as proof positive of the child-man’s existence. But the truth is that my correspondents’ objections gave me pause. Their argument, in effect, was that the SYM is putting off traditional markers of adulthood—one wife, two kids, three bathrooms—not because he’s immature but because he’s angry. He’s angry because he thinks that young women are dishonest, self-involved, slutty, manipulative, shallow, controlling, and gold-digging. He’s angry because he thinks that the culture disses all things male. He’s angry because he thinks that marriage these days is a raw deal for men.
Here’s Jeff from Middleburg, Florida: “I am not going to hitch my wagon to a woman . . . who is more into her abs, thighs, triceps, and plastic surgery. A woman who seems to have forgotten that she did graduate high school and that it’s time to act accordingly.” Jeff, meet another of my respondents, Alex: “Maybe we turn to video games not because we are trying to run away from the responsibilities of a ‘grown-up life’ but because they are a better companion than some disease-ridden bar tramp who is only after money and a free ride.” Care for one more? This is from Dean in California: “Men are finally waking up to the ever-present fact that traditional marriage, or a committed relationship, with its accompanying socially imposed requirements of being wallets with legs for women, is an empty and meaningless drudgery.” You can find the same themes posted throughout websites like AmericanWomenSuck, NoMarriage, MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), and Eternal Bachelor (“Give modern women the husband they deserve. None”).
Ah, yes, the mating call of the MRA: “Women suck and they just want our money and they totally suck and they’re slutty and icky and dirty and I really hate them because they don’t want to be with me.” You’d think, at some point, that these men would be happy that they’d figured out that women were all evil whorebags, and be satisfied with being single. I mean, if women really are as universally evil as the MRAs claim, why would men want to be with them?
Now, I would tend to think that this level of anger comes from a deap-seated hatred of women, one with roots probably going back to childhood. Through self-examination, these men might be able to overcome these problems. But Hymowitz knows better. These men are really upset that women aren’t all on the same page:
The reason for all this anger, I submit, is that the dating and mating scene is in chaos. SYMs of the postfeminist era are moving around in a Babel of miscues, cross-purposes, and half-conscious, contradictory female expectations that are alternately proudly egalitarian and coyly traditional. And because middle-class men and women are putting off marriage well into their twenties and thirties as they pursue Ph.D.s, J.D.s, or their first $50,000 salaries, the opportunities for heartbreak and humiliation are legion. Under these harsh conditions, young men are looking for a new framework for understanding what (or, as they might put it, WTF) women want. So far, their answer is unlikely to satisfy anyone—either women or, in the long run, themselves.
Ah, yes. What do women want? Let me ask a different question: what do men want? Well, it depends, you might say. Some men want a family. Some want sex. Some want an equal. Some are looking for a homemaker. Some are looking for someone to snuggle with on a cold winter’s night, and some are looking for someone to cuckold them while they hide in the closet and take pictures. If there are 150 million American men, there are 250 million different things that those men want.
And the same goes for women. There is no one thing that “women want.” Different women want different things. Some are looking for a friend and companion that will be with them as they build careers. Some are looking for a potential father. Some are looking for a night of commitment-free sex. Some are looking for a threesome. Some are looking for all of the above, or none of the above. And many women — and many men — aren’t sure exactly what they’re looking for.
Confusing? Yes, it is. Welcome to the 21st century. Two hundred years ago, it was easy — everyone was supposed to want the exact same thing. Of course, many women and many men were deeply unhappy then.
Now, men and women have probably been a mystery to one another since the time human beings were in trees; one reason people developed so many rules around courtship was that they needed some way to bridge the Great Sexual Divide
The older I get, the more I believe that women and men are a mystery to each other only because we are constantly told from birth that women and men are a mystery to each other, who speak different languages and are unable to actually communicate. It turns out that men and women are a lot alike. There may be minor differences, but nothing that can’t be figured out by asking questions. Indeed, much of the trouble in relationships could be solved by teaching our children that if they have questions about that boy or girl they’re interested in dating, the best thing to do is just bite the bullet and go ask them. And that if they get asked an honest question, then give an honest answer. Instead, we teach boys and girls that they have to deal with girls and boys through an elaborate system of games and deception. It’s a wonder any relationships work at all.
By the early twentieth century, things had evolved so that in the United States, at any rate, a man knew the following: he was supposed to call for a date; he was supposed to pick up his date; he was supposed to take his date out, say, to a dance, a movie, or an ice-cream joint; if the date went well, he was supposed to call for another one; and at some point, if the relationship seemed charged enough—or if the woman got pregnant—he was supposed to ask her to marry him. Sure, these rules could end in a midlife crisis and an unhealthy fondness for gin, but their advantage was that anyone with an emotional IQ over 70 could follow them.
Today, though, there is no standard scenario for meeting and mating, or even relating. For one thing, men face a situation—and I’m not exaggerating here—new to human history. Never before have men wooed women who are, at least theoretically, their equals—socially, professionally, and sexually.
By the time men reach their twenties, they have years of experience with women as equal competitors in school, on soccer fields, and even in bed. Small wonder if they initially assume that the women they meet are after the same things they are: financial independence, career success, toned triceps, and sex.
And you know, there are a lot of women who are into those things. And a lot of women who aren’t. A lot of men aren’t, too — for example, I don’t even know where my triceps are, and I assume they probably aren’t toned. And if a woman wanted to date me, but was insistent that my triceps were toned…well, it wouldn’t work out. Because I tone my triceps for no earthly being.
But then, when an SYM walks into a bar and sees an attractive woman, it turns out to be nothing like that. The woman may be hoping for a hookup, but she may also be looking for a husband, a co-parent, a sperm donor, a relationship, a threesome, or a temporary place to live. She may want one thing in November and another by Christmas. “I’ve gone through phases in my life where I bounce between serial monogamy, Very Serious Relationships and extremely casual sex,” writes Megan Carpentier on Jezebel, a popular website for young women. “I’ve slept next to guys on the first date, had sex on the first date, allowed no more than a cheek kiss, dispensed with the date-concept altogether after kissing the guy on the way to his car, fucked a couple of close friends and, more rarely, slept with a guy I didn’t care if I ever saw again.” Okay, wonders the ordinary guy with only middling psychic powers, which is it tonight?
Well, here’s a way to find out, guy with middling psychic powers: ask the girl. She’ll tell you.
Or maybe she won’t, but then you’ll know that she’s just looking to play games. And you’ll have to decide whether you want to play along.
Now, maybe the woman gives you an answer you don’t like. Maybe you want a relationship, and she just wants sex. You know what you do then? Thank her for her time, and move along. Because there’s another woman out there who does want a relationship, and you’re looking for her. And there’s another man out there who’s just looking for sex, and you’re getting in his way.
In fact, young men face a bewildering multiplicity of female expectations and desire. Some women are comfortable asking, “What’s your name again?” when they look across the pillow in the morning. But plenty of others are looking for Mr. Darcy. In her interviews with 100 unmarried, college-educated young men and women, Jillian Straus, author of Unhooked Generation, discovered that a lot of women had “personal scripts”—explicit ideas about how a guy should act, such as walking his date home or helping her on with her coat. Straus describes a 26-year-old journalist named Lisa fixed up for a date with a 29-year-old social worker. When he arrives at her door, she’s delighted to see that he’s as good-looking as advertised. But when they walk to his car, he makes his first mistake: he fails to open the car door for her. Mistake Number Two comes a moment later: “So, what would you like to do?” he asks. “Her idea of a date is that the man plans the evening and takes the woman out,” Straus explains. But how was the hapless social worker supposed to know that? In fact, Doesn’t-Open-the-Car-Door Guy might well have been chewed out by a female colleague for reaching for the office door the previous week.
Please. You know what you do when you go out on a first date with a woman who’s really upset that you didn’t open the car for her (or did, wev)? You don’t go out on a second date with her. The reverse is true, too. First dates aren’t binding, long-term contracts. They’re a chance to meet someone and decide if they’re right for you. If you find a person whose idea of a relationship is different than yours, then you’ve probably found a person you don’t want to build a relationship with.
I don’t believe in relationships where the man is supposed to be the guy in charge, and so I’m going to avoid them. If I meet a woman who expects me to plan every date, she’s going to be disappointed in me, and I’m going to be disappointed in her, so why would I be upset that she didn’t want to date me again? If she and I are so incompatible, I don’t want to waste my time dating her again, either.
The cultural muddle is at its greatest when the dinner check arrives. The question of who grabs it is a subject of endless discussion on the hundreds of Internet dating sites. The general consensus among women is that a guy should pay on a first date: they see it as a way for him to demonstrate interest. Many men agree, but others find the presumption confusing. Aren’t the sexes equal? In fact, at this stage in their lives, women may well be in a better position to pick up the tab: according to a 2005 study by Queens College demographer Andrew Beveridge, college-educated women working full-time are earning more than their male counterparts in a number of cities, including New York, Chicago, Boston, and Minneapolis.
This is a bit of a muddle, but only because we’re processing through the change from the era when men worked and women didn’t to an era where everyone’s equal, and that means that the bill question isn’t cut-and-dried. But again, so what? My ex-wife wasn’t overly impressed that we split the bill on our first date (I was being egalitarian, and I was also poor), but it wasn’t a deal-breaker for her, because she understood that it’s not cut-and-dried. She didn’t let a minor faux pas become bigger than it was.
By and large, I think moving to a he-or-she-who-asks-pays rule is probably good, but it will take time to work itself out. And until it does, everyone should be patient and let it work itself out. And women and men alike can show patience in that process — and those that can’t might not be worth another go-round.
Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. But that doesn’t clarify matters, men complain. Women can take a Chinese-menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday night and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day. This isn’t equality, say the male-contents; it’s a ratification of female privilege and, worse, caprice. “Women seemingly have decided that they want it all (and deserve it, too),” Kevin from Ann Arbor writes. “They want to compete equally, and have the privileges of their mother’s generation. They want the executive position, AND the ability to stay home with children and come back into the workplace at or beyond the position at which they left. They want the bad boy and the metrosexual.”
Well…I want to be able to stay home with my daughter and come back at the position I left. You see, being able to be with your kids isn’t simply something women want, it’s something parents want. You make choices and sacrifices, but wanting the best outcome isn’t the end of the world.
Again, though, look at all the theys in the above sentence, all the painting of women as a monolithic entity. But they aren’t. Some women want to pay for movie tickets and melt at a single rose for Valentine’s Day. Some women want the executive position and really hope their husband will stay home with the kids. Different women want different things.
This attraction to bad boys is by far guys’ biggest complaint about contemporary women.
No it isn’t. Not remotely. It’s Nice Guys’™ biggest complaint about contemporary women. The “bad boy” exists primarily in the fevered imagination of Nice Guys™ everywhere, primarily defined as the guy the girl I’d like to be dating is dating.
Young men grew up hearing from their mothers, their teachers, and Oprah that women wanted sensitive, kind, thoughtful, intelligent men who were in touch with their feminine sides, who shared their feelings, who enjoyed watching Ally McBeal rather than Beavis and Butt-Head. Yeah, right, sneer a lot of veterans of the scene. Women don’t want Ashley Wilkes; they’re hot for Rhett Butler, for macho men with tight abs and an emotional range to match.
Yes, some are. Other women are most certainly attracted to sensitive men. Other women are looking for a mixture of the two extremes — a sensitive man who can also be assertive when he needs to be.
According to a “Recovering Nice Guy” writing on Craigslist, the female preference for jerks and “assholes,” as they’re also widely known, lies behind women’s age-old lament, “What happened to all the nice guys?” His answer: “You did. You ignored the nice guy. You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy.” Women, he says, are actually not attracted to men who hold doors for them, give them hinted-for Christmas gifts, or listen to their sorrows. Such a man, our Recovering Nice Guy continues, probably “came to realize that, if he wanted a woman like you, he’d have to act more like the boyfriend that you had. He probably cleaned up his look, started making some money, and generally acted like more of an asshole than he ever wanted to be.”
Yes, I remember, we’ve dealt with this asshole before. And that’s what he is — an asshole. Because only an asshole could write, “You used him for emotional intimacy without reciprocating, in kind, with physical intimacy,” and not realize that he was betraying a completely facile and stereotypical idea of What Women and Men are Supposed to Want. Men want sex, women want emotional intimacy. If you’re a guy, and you’re a friend to a girl, she owes you sex. That’s the payback. Never is it noted that the guy might have received emotional intimacy from his female friend — what guy feels emotion? No, he wanted sex, and didn’t get it, and now he’s gonna whine about it.
There’s a ton more to the article — it goes on and on an on, talking about the Seduction Community and Darwinist Dating and how women really want to marry a rich guy, before coming to the obvious conclusion:
Nevertheless, you might ask, are there really so many dating Darwinists on the prowl? Is dating really hell, as the website would have it, for the majority of contemporary SYMs and Fs? Probably not. It’s a safe bet that for all the confusions and humiliations of dating, most men will still try to be nice guys who say “please” and avoid asking a woman about her sexual history until, say, the third date. And if the past is any guide, most of them, even the most masterly PUAs, will eventually find themselves coaching Little League on weekends. In a national survey of young, heterosexual men, the National Marriage Project, a research organization at Rutgers University, found that the majority of single subjects hoped to marry and have kids someday.
Um…yeah. You see, as most of us who live here in the real world know, dating isn’t particularly hellish. There are awkward moments and bad dates and people you don’t want to see again, but there are funny stories and entertaining anecdotes and every so often, a person you really, really are glad you met. Equality hasn’t ended dating, it’s just made it more chaotic and free. And while it may take a bit more time to find the person who fits with you, in the end you’re more likely to. And that makes all the difference.
(H/T Jezebel)
Topics: Feminism, Nice Guys®, The Men's Rights Movement | 9 Comments »
November 18th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Oh no! You mean I want you to actually get to know me and find out what my individual preferences are? You can’t just look up in a manual of “What Women Want” and have the answers be true for all women? Heavens forbid!
Personally, I like nice guys – I just hate Nice Guys (TM). The nice guy listens to me because he’s interested, not because he wants to get in my pants. A nice guy will accept my rejection without becoming emotionally violent and calling me a slut, bimbo, gold-digger, etc. Nice Guy (TM) has become nothing more than a code-word for sexist. As you say, the word “they” comes up way too much in their little rants.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
“The older I get, the more I believe that women and men are a mystery to each other only because we are constantly told from birth that women and men are a mystery to each other, who speak different languages and are unable to actually communicate.”
QFT! If there’s only one advantage in life to being trans, it’s that I figured this out real early in life. Makes dealing with people as people a whole heck of a lot easier.
November 18th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
“The older I get, the more I believe that women and men are a mystery to each other only because we are constantly told from birth that women and men are a mystery to each other, who speak different languages and are unable to actually communicate.”
I see I’m not the only one to single out this sentence! This is so right! And I really appreciate your emphasis on honesty, because I was brought up to believe that you could NEVER be honest in a relationship — that you always had to pretend you didn’t know what was going on, or that if you wanted to end it, you should lie to “spare his feelings.” That screwed me up about 17 ways from Tuesday until I finally got some therapy. This was a great post!
November 30th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Women never learn… Neither do most men for that matter.
Today’s western females aren’t worth more than a fuck and chuck. They are not marriage or mother material by a long shot. They should be locked up in mental institutes considering the amount of medication they’re all taking. Which sure isn’t doing them any good from the looks of things.
Yet I do have some pity towards them. They’ve been brainwashed by feminism almost since birth. Now they aren’t suited for anything or anyone for the rest of their lives. With the exception of a few felines. What a waste.
I wont even bother with describing what this does to our countries as a whole. You obviously have no capacity to bother looking at the big picture.
“And I really appreciate your emphasis on honesty, because I was brought up to believe that you could NEVER be honest in a relationship”
If this is the kind of woman you’ll be banging by pandering to them with this tripe, by all means, you go boy.
November 30th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Jeff, she talking about you as a member of the male sex..
That has not struck home yet ?
March 21st, 2009 at 11:31 pm
You say that two hundred years ago many men and women were deeply unhappy. You don’t think there are many men and women who are deeply unhappy today?
August 31st, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Honestly! I think Men who take pity on themselves by using the “Nice Guys Finish Last” routine need to get the f%ck over it! In my opinion, its a cop-out! This is a competitive doggy -dogg world we live in. There is always room for improvement. What women want? The million dollar question! Women want SWAGGER! (a man with confidence, personal style, unique personality, and a great lover!) Plain and Simple! This isn’t nuclear physics! All this psycho mumbo jumbo I am hearing on this site is making me BARF! Men do not want average, why should women? Has anyone stop to think maybe these whining complaining nice guys are settling for women way out of their leagues! If I was unattractive with a low self esteem, what would be my odds of attracting Brad Pitt, David Beckham, Blair Underwood, or Laz Alonso. I’ll tell you, my chances would be ZERO! Its not Newtons Third Law of Gravity…but reality! And nice guys who DO finish last need a reality check!
August 31st, 2009 at 1:41 pm
lllll
March 22nd, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Whoa great, well-written blog. Great topic too ;)
I’ve got a blog of my own on the nice guy dilemma check it out:
A Unique Take on the “Nice Guy” Dilemma